From last night’s Larry King, the transcript for the show I told you about:

KING: Now to look at the Israeli situation we call on Alan Dershowitz. He’s in Martha’s Vineyard, Massachusetts, the Harvard law professor and author of “The Case for Israel.” And, in Washington, James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, he’s a Lebanese American.

Alan, in your blog yesterday posted in today’s Huffingtonpost.com you write, “We must stop viewing Lebanon as a victim and see it as a collaborator.” What do you mean?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: That’s the great tragedy that 88 percent of Lebanese today say they support Hezbollah. The president of Lebanon says he supports Hezbollah and its leader. The Lebanese Army has begun to collaborate with Hezbollah. Many, many Lebanese civilians are allowing their homes to be used for Hezbollah launching.

It’s a terrible tragedy but Lebanon is becoming like Austria was in the Second World War. They are not Hezbollah’s first victim. They are Hezbollah’s major collaborator. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be very sympathetic to the civilians who are caught up in this.

But the Lebanese government is making a terrible, terrible mistake. They’re picking the wrong side in the beginning of a major war between democracies and terrorism. They’re supporting the terrorists for whatever reason and understandable maybe but they’re on the wrong side and tragically their citizens are paying a heavy price.

KING: James.

JAMES ZOGBY, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Well my sainted mother would say “Aye” (ph). In Arabic that means shame on you, Alan. And I read that blog and the one that preceded it where you argued that there were degrees of being a civilian.

And the point you were making was not dissimilar to the point that terrorists always make and that is that in a war there are no civilians. Everyone on the enemy side is culpable.

The fact is, the simple fact is, is that one-third, almost 300 of those killed in Lebanon, have been children under the age of 13. I saw a funeral march in Tyre today where 13 people were killed because Israel bombed a funeral march. The fact is, is that why people in Lebanon say they support Hezbollah today is because they oppose the barbarism of this war.

And, frankly, I think that we ought to be able to speak out and say “We’re not going to return to the law of the jungle. We’re not going to support killing civilians. We’re not going to target the government of Lebanon. We’re going to play by different rules.”

But frankly, Israel hasn’t played by the right rules and they’ve taken a terrible consequence here, both in terms of civilian life but I think also in terms of their own morality.

KING: Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: Well this is a war, this is a prelude to the future unfortunately. What’s happened is this is a surrogate war, much like the Spanish Civil War was, a surrogate prelude to the Second World War. It’s a new kind of warfare in which terrorist armies, like Hezbollah, hide among civilians and challenge democracies, either to do nothing or to fire back in which case civilians are killed.

I shed as many tears as you did over the children of Tyre and all the others but every one of those deaths is blamable only on Hezbollah. Israel doesn’t want to hit civilians. It wants to hit military targets.

If the greatest generation of Americans who fought the First World War had — Second World War, rather, had to live by the standards that Jim Zogby understandably imposes on Israel, we would have lost that war.

The United States attacked military targets and in the process killed many, many civilians. That was necessary to win a war and that’s going to be necessary to beat terrorism here too.

KING: James.

ZOGBY: Day after day after day where Israel continues to say “We intended to hit and we missed” the fact is, is that at some point you have to hold yourself to a moral standard. Those are the rules after World War II that we actually imposed on ourselves and on others.

If this is the new kind of war you talk about, if this is the war for a new democracy and a new generation in the world, we ought to be setting a higher standard, not returning to the law of the jungle.

The fact is, is that if we are to hold ourselves to this higher standard and say “We want you to be like us,” then what lesson are we teaching the world? We’re teaching the world that the law of the terrorists is the law we’ll use is that we will hit civilians with impunity and frankly you will like it or you — we don’t care if you don’t like it because you’re going to pay the price anyway.” That is disgusting and I think most people share my outrage that you would make that argument.

KING: Alan, is Israel losing worldwide except in places like maybe Great Britain and the United States the perception battle?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, of course, and that’s Hezbollah’s great weapon. Hezbollah hides among civilians in order to elicit attacks from Israel on its military targets hoping, Hezbollah hopes that many Lebanese civilians will die and then they win.

They win because the media and international public opinion turns against Israel. And when international opinion turns against Israel, it only encourages Hezbollah to do more and more hiding among civilians.

ZOGBY: Oh, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: As Golda Meir once said “We can forgive you for killing our children but we can never forgive you for making us kill your children.” And what would any democracy do if rockets were being rained down?

KING: By the way…

DERSHOWITZ: Last week Jim Zogby called them a joke. He said it was a joke these Katyusha rockets. We know somebody from Newton who was killed with a Katyusha rocket. Twelve Israelis were killed yesterday. Three Arab Israelis were killed yesterday.

Any democracy would go after the Katyusha rockets after saying in advance and warning the civilians “leave town.” Anywhere a Katyusha rocket comes from has to be a military target.

KING: And, James, shouldn’t Israel — what does Israel do if Hezbollah keeps attacking them, not retaliate?

ZOGBY: Look, Larry, we can start this history at any point you want and I agreed already at the very beginning that the action that Hezbollah took to kidnap these two Israeli soldiers was a provocative one. It shouldn’t have happened outside of the Lebanese government as they acted and they were repudiated by the Lebanese government.

But the barbaric bombardment of Lebanon that began shortly thereafter are what started the Katyusha rockets flying. The fact is, is that there is at this point a war being fought by both sides with wanton disregard for civilians.

Lebanese have paid the price ten times to one and the infrastructure of Lebanon has been totally destroyed. But, for Alan to make the case that this is what Hezbollah wants that they win a victory when these children die is gross.

DERSHOWITZ: Absolutely.

ZOGBY: It is a way of absolving…

DERSHOWITZ: It’s true. It’s gross and it’s true.

ZOGBY: …a guilty client. It’s something he’s done time and time again. But the fact is, is that saying “I didn’t mean to rape her but she had a short skirt on” doesn’t cut it. You at some point have to say “stop the madness.” You cannot be killing these children, these innocent people and saying “It’s your fault. I didn’t mean to do it.” That’s total racism to use that argument. I’m sorry.

DERSHOWITZ: Jim, I expect better from you than to make the argument that I’m a defense lawyer. Let me make my argument.

ZOGBY: I expect better from you, Alan, than you…

KING: One at a time — Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: This is not — this is not about — let me make my point please.

ZOGBY: Yes.

DERSHOWITZ: This is not about excusing crime. This is about saying there is crime and the crime is being committed by Hezbollah. It’s a crime against humanity deliberately to hide behind civilians and to say to a democracy “We’re either going to kill your civilians or you will have to kill our civilians.”

We must put an end to this type of warfare. This is the beginning of a world war in which this kind of terrorism will be used against democracies. And the question is are democracies going to be impotent in the face of this or will the international community finally say to Hezbollah and others “You cannot hide behind civilians? You cannot use civilians as a shield. If you do, you are responsible for every death caused by that.” That is the law today in the United States and should be the international law as well.

KING: Alan, hold it. Alan, hold it. James, you have one minute. It’s yours. Go ahead.

ZOGBY: And what you’re saying, Alan, is that we will use every barbaric means at our disposal to stop you, which makes us no better — which makes us no better than those we claim to fight against. At the end of the day here, there are lessons that we have to learn.

DERSHOWITZ: They try not to kill civilians.

ZOGBY: Alan, I didn’t bother you. Please stop.

KING: Alan, let him finish.

ZOGBY: The fact is, is that this is a war that is being fought by illicit means and it’s not the first time in the Middle East. I lived through 1982 and I saw what Israeli did then. The Lebanon that is being destroyed today is one that took years to rebuild.

Frankly, no good will come of this. And I think we need to listen to the Lebanese government. We need an immediate cease-fire and the Lebanese need to be able to patrol the south. Israel needs to withdraw. We cannot allow the Lebanese government to fall. We need an immediate cease-fire. The best way to end this is simply to end it.

KING: I thank you both very much. We’ll be calling on you again. Alan Dershowitz, hold it, the Harvard law professor and author of “The Case for Israel” and James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute, Lebanese American, great to have them both with us expertly presenting each side of the case.