I Disagree, I Think
Mar 13th, 2008 at 2:02 am by Chris
First of all, I need to get something out of my system. NaPatriot wrote this comment on Susie’s last post.
Hillary knows just where the line is…and she played this one just about perfectly. She’ll win big in PA with white, working class, uneducated voters.
I’m a white, uneducated, ninth-grade dropout, Obama supporter and Commonwealth of Pennsylvania resident. You, sir or madam, need to go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw. Quit looking down your nose, asshole.
That said, Ferraro’s comments are really the first example of dog whistle politics that I actually buy as being genuinely dog whistle in this whole primary campaign. I doubt that Clinton had a thing to do with them, but they are what they are. I grew up around the cats that Gerry was whistling to; the cats who are bitter about affirmative action without knowing the first thing about how it actually works; the cats who look at the shithole neighborhood they grew up in and associate the shittiness with the skin color of the people who live there now.
Given the timeline, if Gerry was whistling, she was whistling to kindred souls in states not named Pennsylvania. Doubtful they heard it. Given that she was talking to a little shit paper in California, she was really just whistling to herself. But whatever, her deal is pretty shitty. There is no real way around it. It’s mostly good that she’s being forced, through her own dumbassedness, into another 20 years of obscurity.
The lesson, for now, is a good one. When one of the two million or so people vaguely associated with one of the presidential campaigns says something enormously stupid, try to look the other way. That said, if Clinton does indeed try the Archie Bunker strategy in Pennsylvania, we should all call bullshit. I just have a hard time seeing this as part of a coordinated plan cooked up at the highest levels of the campaign.
…adding. If Obama starts with the Bunker strategy (that one goes in any number of directions) in Pennsylvania, we all need to call bullshit as well.
Interesting how that demographic is going for Hillary. (It IS a fact, not opinion.) It’s not known as Pennsyltucky for nothing. Just a little further south and the dog whistles are playing “Dixie.” If you face south on a quiet summer night and listen carefully, you can hear them from Philly.
I call “condescending bullshit” on that remark. I don’t have a college degree, either - I guess that accounts for my “stupidity”? I have an IQ of 152. When I was 15 years old, I had my own side business writing term papers - from scratch - for Penn students and never got anything lower than an “A”. Back before the ID requirements got so stringent, I took the graduate school entrance tests for a few friends with crippling test anxiety. (And yes, they both got in.) I beat out 250 journalism school graduates for my first newspaper job.
With comments like this, I can’t help but feel that much of the Obama “movement” is more about class identification and intellectual snobbery.
With comments like this, I can’t help but feel that much of the Obama “movement” is more about class identification and intellectual snobbery
oh c’mon susie. must you paint an entire diverse political movement solely on the basis of some commentators? i mean, look at chris’ post.
there’s nothing classist or snobby about the obama campaign. sure there are classists and snobs who support obama, and throw in sexists for good measure. there are also classists, snobs and racists who support clinton too. hell, rush limbaugh supports clinton these days. but i think it’s incredibly unfair to hold that against clinton herself, or any of her other supporters.
Who said that was my only basis? You think this comment is somehow unusual, and that I only read people who agree with me?
If I did, my blood pressure wouldn’t be so high.
And to act as if racism - or sexism - is the exclusive property of any specific class, geography or other demographic is just plain laughable.
You think this comment is somehow unusual, and that I only read people who agree with me?
of course not. but i do think you don’t like obama, and seem to be a lot more sensitive with the bad pro-obama commentators than the bad pro-clinton ones. personally, i think all candidates have assholes among their followers. it’s silly to base your support or lack of support for someone because of what the assholes say. you can find assholes pointing in every direction. they basically all cancel out.
And to act as if racism - or sexism - is the exclusive property of any specific class, geography or other demographic is just plain laughable.
who said that? i certainly don’t believe that.
Maybe it’s because a lot of the Obama commentors come off as holier-than-thou; very annoying even whne JRE was still in the race. They werre the ones (specially on DK) who would call JRE a slick-talking lawyer (oh the irony). Not so much from the HRC supporters.
People keep telling me about the HRC supporters “who are just as bad,” but honestly, I’ve only seen people like that at one site. I just don’t see HRC people who are anywhere near as invested as destroying BO as I see BO people invested in destroying HRC. (And polls consistently show it’s only the BO people who insist they won’t vote if HRC gets the nomination, and not vice versa.)
For instance, some of my readers here think saying anything critical about BO is an attack. I simply want his supporters to acknowledge that’s he’s a politician - and not as perfect as people seem to think. These pro-corporate candidates are far too similar to take any of this stuff seriously. At this point, I only want to beat McCain - and successfully painting Clinton as a racist is a VERY big problem if she’s the nominee. The Obama camp should be ashamed of themselves.
I’m a longtime Lehigh Valley, PA resident. I was an Edwards supporter. I’ve been trying to take all of the primary war of words with a grain of salt, because our goal must be a Democrat in the Whitehouse. A McCain win would be a disaster, and none of the Clinton vs Obama bickering would mean a thing. I’ll most likely be voting for Obama in the primary because I think he has the better chance of beating McCain. In November, I’ll be voting for the Democratic candidate.
With regard to who should be doing some soul searching TPM reports that 39% of Clinton supporters agree with Ferraro’s comments as compared to 7% of Obama’s. Not all of these folks are dying of cancer.
Maybe the Clinton supporters bothered to read what she actually said, and in what context.
People keep telling me about the HRC supporters “who are just as bad,” but honestly, I’ve only seen people like that at one site. I just don’t see HRC people who are anywhere near as invested as destroying BO as I see BO people invested in destroying HRC.
see, that’s where i think it comes down to different perceptions. i mean, i think your posts have been about destroying BO, at least sometimes. taylor marsh’s site is pretty much 100% like that. talk left as well. i find it endlessly fascinating how HRC supporters see HRC trashing everywhere, but don’t see their own BHO trashing. and likewise how a lot of BHO supporters don’t notice how their own HRC criticism looks a lot like trashing to people on the other side of the fence.
no matter who’s “right” (and i don’t think either side is. there is no objective standard for “trashing”), both sides feel mistreated by the other side. that’s why you hear that HRC people are “just as bad” because from BHO-people’s perspective they are. and to them, you’re sometimes included in the “they.”
(And polls consistently show it’s only the BO people who insist they won’t vote if HRC gets the nomination, and not vice versa.)
i’ve never seen these polls, but i highly doubt that any have shown that “only the BO people” threaten not to vote for the other candidate in the general. especially since i’ve seen plenty of commentators saying that they would never vote for obama in the general. there was a corrente thread that this site linked to not that long ago that had several HRC people saying that. you’re just not seeing the same behavior when HRC people do it.
I simply want his supporters to acknowledge that’s he’s a politician - and not as perfect as people seem to think.
has anyone here ever said that obama isn’t a politician? this is the second time you’ve raised that straw man in your discussion with me. as i said last time, of course he’s a politician. i have never met an obama supporter who doesn’t think so. i’ve even had an obama delegate and organizer of philly for obama refer to him as a politician. i think you’re reacting to an inaccurate stereotype of obama supporters. they don’t think he’s perfect. the only reason you’d ever get that impression is if you take the “cultist” thing literally. but the “cultist” thing is itself a form of OHB-trashing that i referred to above. a form, i might add, that you have engaged in yourself here.
At this point, I only want to beat McCain - and successfully painting Clinton as a racist is a VERY big problem if she’s the nominee.
i agree. as i said in the other thread, i’m basically with you on the ferraro thing. and by the same token, painting obama and obama supporters as sexist or classist is a VERY big problem if he’s the nominee. and yet you had no problem at all repeating every sexist dogwhistle charge out there. and you have repeatedly referred to the obama campaign as classist.
once again i am struck by how offended you are getting from one line of attack and yet how blind you are that you are engaging in essentially the same lines of attacks in the other direction.
look, you support clinton and i support obama. i’m cool with that. my friends are split over this election and i’m even supporting a different person than my wife. and yet we can somehow all be friends. and i don’t even mind if you criticize obama for stuff. i mean, if i disagree i will argue about it (that’s what i do), but i could also agree with you. despite my support of obama i’ve never thought he isn’t wrong about something. why repeat every negative thing about obama and go to the mat for clinton all the time? you’re usually more of a critical thinker than a partisan. i’m just surprised to see the election bring this out of you.
Chris,
“You, sir or madam, need to go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw.”
That’s a bit harsh don’t you think? You seem to have missed the point that lots of folks understand. Obama has a problem with white voters, especially the less-educated. It’s just a fact. Clinton is trying to exploit it, as any good politician should. And it worked very well for her in Ohio.
You may want to look at what Howard Fineman of Newsweek said on MSNBC about this…I quote:
“Mississippi has come and gone. We‘re heading into six weeks of Pennsylvania. It‘s said by others, including James Carville, a Democrat who used to work for the Clintons, that Pennsylvania is Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, with Alabama in between, white Alabama, not black Alabama. You may draw your own conclusions about why the Clinton people feel they think they can back up Gerry Ferraro at this moment.”
Obama has a problem with white voters, especially the less-educated. It’s just a fact.
does he have that problem? is it really a fact?
there’s a problem with taking primary electoral data and applying towards the election as a whole. i mean, it is clear that less-educated white voters tend to prefer clinton over obama. but that doesn’t mean they will prefer mccain over obama or prefer not to vote for obama over mccain. likewise, just because 90% of black voters have chosen obama over clinton doesn’t mean they won’t choose clinton over mccain in the fall.
in short, the primary data indicates groups preferences of one candidate over another. it doesn’t necessarily show that any group has a particular problem with obama or clinton.
I live in the not Philly/Pburgh part of Pennsyltucky and most of those voicing a preference are all in for McBush. Considering that most of the Commonwealth is staunchly Republican outside of the urban areas (evilbig city), you might connect the dots to the “Southern Strategy”. There is also the complete whiteness of the rural areas.
That whole “Fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw?” I agree. I’m sick of hearing about “the working class” as if I’m from another fucking species. I’m sick of hearing about “the creative class” going for Obama like they are wise gods handing down their oh-so correct judgment for us poor stupid people to blindly follow.
And Yes. I’m hearing this from the Obama side. I’m reading speeches on-line and I don’t see Clinton mouthing platitudes or dumbing down her speeches, and I do see Obama doing that (And no, I’m not talking about the “okey-doke”). If there is a class divide in this primary, Obama and his supporters are fueling it.
Like I said before, I’ll kiss the ass of any politician who’ll show up at shift change and talk to factory workers. Remember us? Salt of the earth. Or disposable, depending on how much of an ass you are.
And to be honest, I will be happy to vote for either of them. My primary is past, so I don’t matter any more. That’s all right. I’m poor, from a poor part of my state. I haven’t mattered in a long time.
Working class voted for Reagan
Working class voted for Bush
Working class hated Clinton
Working class voted for Bush
Maybe the creative class thinks you should be considering your interests and voting prgressive/socialist.