Maybe the creative class thinks you should be considering your interests and voting prgressive/socialist.

does he have that problem? is it really a fact?

there’s a problem with taking primary electoral data and applying towards the election as a whole. i mean, it is clear that less-educated white voters tend to prefer clinton over obama. but that doesn’t mean they will prefer mccain over obama or prefer not to vote for obama over mccain. likewise, just because 90% of black voters have chosen obama over clinton doesn’t mean they won’t choose clinton over mccain in the fall.

in short, the primary data indicates groups preferences of one candidate over another. it doesn’t necessarily show that any group has a particular problem with obama or clinton.

“You, sir or madam, need to go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw.”

That’s a bit harsh don’t you think? You seem to have missed the point that lots of folks understand. Obama has a problem with white voters, especially the less-educated. It’s just a fact. Clinton is trying to exploit it, as any good politician should. And it worked very well for her in Ohio.

You may want to look at what Howard Fineman of Newsweek said on MSNBC about this…I quote:

“Mississippi has come and gone. We‘re heading into six weeks of Pennsylvania. It‘s said by others, including James Carville, a Democrat who used to work for the Clintons, that Pennsylvania is Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, with Alabama in between, white Alabama, not black Alabama. You may draw your own conclusions about why the Clinton people feel they think they can back up Gerry Ferraro at this moment.”

see, that’s where i think it comes down to different perceptions. i mean, i think your posts have been about destroying BO, at least sometimes. taylor marsh’s site is pretty much 100% like that. talk left as well. i find it endlessly fascinating how HRC supporters see HRC trashing everywhere, but don’t see their own BHO trashing. and likewise how a lot of BHO supporters don’t notice how their own HRC criticism looks a lot like trashing to people on the other side of the fence.

no matter who’s “right” (and i don’t think either side is. there is no objective standard for “trashing”), both sides feel mistreated by the other side. that’s why you hear that HRC people are “just as bad” because from BHO-people’s perspective they are. and to them, you’re sometimes included in the “they.”

(And polls consistently show it’s only the BO people who insist they won’t vote if HRC gets the nomination, and not vice versa.)

i’ve never seen these polls, but i highly doubt that any have shown that “only the BO people” threaten not to vote for the other candidate in the general. especially since i’ve seen plenty of commentators saying that they would never vote for obama in the general. there was a corrente thread that this site linked to not that long ago that had several HRC people saying that. you’re just not seeing the same behavior when HRC people do it.

I simply want his supporters to acknowledge that’s he’s a politician - and not as perfect as people seem to think.

has anyone here ever said that obama isn’t a politician? this is the second time you’ve raised that straw man in your discussion with me. as i said last time, of course he’s a politician. i have never met an obama supporter who doesn’t think so. i’ve even had an obama delegate and organizer of philly for obama refer to him as a politician. i think you’re reacting to an inaccurate stereotype of obama supporters. they don’t think he’s perfect. the only reason you’d ever get that impression is if you take the “cultist” thing literally. but the “cultist” thing is itself a form of OHB-trashing that i referred to above. a form, i might add, that you have engaged in yourself here.

At this point, I only want to beat McCain - and successfully painting Clinton as a racist is a VERY big problem if she’s the nominee.

i agree. as i said in the other thread, i’m basically with you on the ferraro thing. and by the same token, painting obama and obama supporters as sexist or classist is a VERY big problem if he’s the nominee. and yet you had no problem at all repeating every sexist dogwhistle charge out there. and you have repeatedly referred to the obama campaign as classist.

once again i am struck by how offended you are getting from one line of attack and yet how blind you are that you are engaging in essentially the same lines of attacks in the other direction.

look, you support clinton and i support obama. i’m cool with that. my friends are split over this election and i’m even supporting a different person than my wife. and yet we can somehow all be friends. and i don’t even mind if you criticize obama for stuff. i mean, if i disagree i will argue about it (that’s what i do), but i could also agree with you. despite my support of obama i’ve never thought he isn’t wrong about something. why repeat every negative thing about obama and go to the mat for clinton all the time? you’re usually more of a critical thinker than a partisan. i’m just surprised to see the election bring this out of you.

For instance, some of my readers here think saying anything critical about BO is an attack. I simply want his supporters to acknowledge that’s he’s a politician - and not as perfect as people seem to think. These pro-corporate candidates are far too similar to take any of this stuff seriously. At this point, I only want to beat McCain - and successfully painting Clinton as a racist is a VERY big problem if she’s the nominee. The Obama camp should be ashamed of themselves.

of course not. but i do think you don’t like obama, and seem to be a lot more sensitive with the bad pro-obama commentators than the bad pro-clinton ones. personally, i think all candidates have assholes among their followers. it’s silly to base your support or lack of support for someone because of what the assholes say. you can find assholes pointing in every direction. they basically all cancel out.

And to act as if racism - or sexism - is the exclusive property of any specific class, geography or other demographic is just plain laughable.

who said that? i certainly don’t believe that.

If I did, my blood pressure wouldn’t be so high.

And to act as if racism - or sexism - is the exclusive property of any specific class, geography or other demographic is just plain laughable.

oh c’mon susie. must you paint an entire diverse political movement solely on the basis of some commentators? i mean, look at chris’ post.

there’s nothing classist or snobby about the obama campaign. sure there are classists and snobs who support obama, and throw in sexists for good measure. there are also classists, snobs and racists who support clinton too. hell, rush limbaugh supports clinton these days. but i think it’s incredibly unfair to hold that against clinton herself, or any of her other supporters.

With comments like this, I can’t help but feel that much of the Obama “movement” is more about class identification and intellectual snobbery.