Comments on: Comfortably Numb http://susiemadrak.com/2008/04/17/13/06/comfortably-numb-3/ Keeping a jaundiced eye on the corporate media. Sat, 05 Jul 2008 03:17:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Bob http://susiemadrak.com/2008/04/17/13/06/comfortably-numb-3/#comment-141128 Bob Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:16:51 +0000 http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24508#comment-141128 K: Sorry to keep going on, but as one who has dealt with a disease all his life this is a rather important issue to me. There is an entire history of people just like Barber who have some experience in the field and then become some sort of self-appointed God, roundly attacking any and all people involved who don’t see things the exact same way they do. Hell, ever read or see the movie “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”? Great novel by the way. But here’s Ken Kesey, a guy with an English degree working on a masters and he takes a job in a psych ward. He makes electro-shock therapy the center point of the book; an evil method of control used to make zombies of people. After the book came out there was so great an outcry that the use of electro-shock all bet vanished for 2 decades. It’s back now. Why? Because believe it or not it works extremely well in certain narrowly defined cases. It was misused and that was wrong. But this is what happens when broad, anecdotal evidence is used to make medical decisions. For 2 decades some of the most depressed people – those literally on the brink of suicide – were denied access to one of the most successful methods for dealing with their problems because of a fucking novel. It is inconceivable that some didn’t end killing themselves because lesser methods didn’t provide enough relief. Don’t be fooled, Barber’s work will be used in the same way. It’s not gonna lead to an increase in “proper” dispensing of medication. What it will do is add to the already great enough stigma attached to people taking psych meds. And that’s my other problem. Do I tell my friends, my bosses, my coworkers?????? There remains a HUGE stigma in our society regarding these meds. I’m old enough and obnoxious enough that I won’t hide my disease from anyone; if it comes up in conversation I talk about it. But a lot of people – especially those in the early stages of coming to grips with it – aren’t able to be open. Jobs, credit, health insurance, etc are so tied up in this it is often a choice between honesty and a paycheck. We fight enough on enough fronts without this charlatan running around the country trying to sell books by convincing people those of us on these meds are at best dupes, and at worst just too damn weak to deal the day-to-day hassles of life. K: Sorry to keep going on, but as one who has dealt with a disease all his life this is a rather important issue to me. There is an entire history of people just like Barber who have some experience in the field and then become some sort of self-appointed God, roundly attacking any and all people involved who don’t see things the exact same way they do.
Hell, ever read or see the movie “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”? Great novel by the way. But here’s Ken Kesey, a guy with an English degree working on a masters and he takes a job in a psych ward. He makes electro-shock therapy the center point of the book; an evil method of control used to make zombies of people. After the book came out there was so great an outcry that the use of electro-shock all bet vanished for 2 decades. It’s back now. Why? Because believe it or not it works extremely well in certain narrowly defined cases.
It was misused and that was wrong. But this is what happens when broad, anecdotal evidence is used to make medical decisions. For 2 decades some of the most depressed people – those literally on the brink of suicide – were denied access to one of the most successful methods for dealing with their problems because of a fucking novel. It is inconceivable that some didn’t end killing themselves because lesser methods didn’t provide enough relief.
Don’t be fooled, Barber’s work will be used in the same way. It’s not gonna lead to an increase in “proper” dispensing of medication. What it will do is add to the already great enough stigma attached to people taking psych meds.
And that’s my other problem. Do I tell my friends, my bosses, my coworkers?????? There remains a HUGE stigma in our society regarding these meds. I’m old enough and obnoxious enough that I won’t hide my disease from anyone; if it comes up in conversation I talk about it. But a lot of people – especially those in the early stages of coming to grips with it – aren’t able to be open. Jobs, credit, health insurance, etc are so tied up in this it is often a choice between honesty and a paycheck. We fight enough on enough fronts without this charlatan running around the country trying to sell books by convincing people those of us on these meds are at best dupes, and at worst just too damn weak to deal the day-to-day hassles of life.

]]> By: Bob http://susiemadrak.com/2008/04/17/13/06/comfortably-numb-3/#comment-141125 Bob Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:56:52 +0000 http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24508#comment-141125 K: I haven't read his book, but have seen/heard three extensive interviews with him. What he does is kinda like what Jonah Goldberg did in “Liberal Fascism” – lots of broad generalizations which can’t help but lead one to a specified conclusion which the author/speaker is than free to parse into meaninglessness. You know “fascism is a day care worker giving out bran muffins” becomes I didn’t say day care was fascistic, I didn’t say bran muffins were fascistic…. Here are several quotes from the article Susie linked to: “I think I make clear in the book that for serious disorders, I've seen the medications work really, really well. However, there are often side effects that the field has overlooked and is becoming more aware of these days. And these medications still don't work a good percentage of the time for people with serious disorders.” “The same can be said of the antidepressants. They can be wonderful for people that really need them, but they've been indiscriminately given out to people and the utility is arguable.” “The arrival of Prozac in 1988 was a perfect storm, culturally and just in terms of the drug itself. In the '70s Valium paved the way for Prozac. It was the first psychiatric drug for anxiety that became mainstream. The earlier generation of antidepressants had a lot of side effects and could be fatal in overdose, and Prozac seemed very clean by contrast.” And on and on and on. The point I’m making is this. The gestalt of all his arguments, all his anecdotes is this: sure, that crazy guy you see hanging around the train station arguing with invisible alien’s needs medication but most people just have the blues, or are just a little down and then doctors and pharmaceutical companies convince them they need meds. There is no way to take his message as anything other than only in extreme cases are psychiatric medications necessary or useful. He throws so many caveats, and uses so many boogey man stories it is impossible to come away believing that the majority of people benefiting from these meds should really be taking them. That he leaves himself some wiggle-room is something I find despicable, not admirable. I don’t need his sweeping generalizations and desire to sell books interfering with my right to make informed decisions in concert with my psychiatrist. As for the MAO inhibitor, I see a shrink and he prescribes it. I live between Baltimore and Washington DC. If you live around here and would like his name email Susie – she has my email address and will give it to you – I’ll be happy to provide you his contact information. K: I haven’t read his book, but have seen/heard three extensive interviews with him. What he does is kinda like what Jonah Goldberg did in “Liberal Fascism” – lots of broad generalizations which can’t help but lead one to a specified conclusion which the author/speaker is than free to parse into meaninglessness. You know “fascism is a day care worker giving out bran muffins” becomes I didn’t say day care was fascistic, I didn’t say bran muffins were fascistic….
Here are several quotes from the article Susie linked to:

“I think I make clear in the book that for serious disorders, I’ve seen the medications work really, really well. However, there are often side effects that the field has overlooked and is becoming more aware of these days. And these medications still don’t work a good percentage of the time for people with serious disorders.”

“The same can be said of the antidepressants. They can be wonderful for people that really need them, but they’ve been indiscriminately given out to people and the utility is arguable.”

“The arrival of Prozac in 1988 was a perfect storm, culturally and just in terms of the drug itself. In the ’70s Valium paved the way for Prozac. It was the first psychiatric drug for anxiety that became mainstream. The earlier generation of antidepressants had a lot of side effects and could be fatal in overdose, and Prozac seemed very clean by contrast.”

And on and on and on. The point I’m making is this. The gestalt of all his arguments, all his anecdotes is this: sure, that crazy guy you see hanging around the train station arguing with invisible alien’s needs medication but most people just have the blues, or are just a little down and then doctors and pharmaceutical companies convince them they need meds. There is no way to take his message as anything other than only in extreme cases are psychiatric medications necessary or useful. He throws so many caveats, and uses so many boogey man stories it is impossible to come away believing that the majority of people benefiting from these meds should really be taking them. That he leaves himself some wiggle-room is something I find despicable, not admirable. I don’t need his sweeping generalizations and desire to sell books interfering with my right to make informed decisions in concert with my psychiatrist.
As for the MAO inhibitor, I see a shrink and he prescribes it. I live between Baltimore and Washington DC. If you live around here and would like his name email Susie – she has my email address and will give it to you – I’ll be happy to provide you his contact information.

]]> By: k http://susiemadrak.com/2008/04/17/13/06/comfortably-numb-3/#comment-141121 k Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:13:47 +0000 http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24508#comment-141121 I don't think Barber is in any way saying that people shouldn't take these drugs if they need them. He is saying that they are prescribed for conditions that can be managed by far less drastic measures. An example of this practice of overprescription can be found in my community, where nearly every woman who is unhappy in her marriage is handed a prescription for Prozac. Along with complaining about the overprescription of these drugs, he is also complaining about the lack of follow-up, since most are handed out by family practice people, who say to come back in six months. I haven't heard what he's been saying on radio or television. I would like to know how the heck you can still be getting MAO inhibitors. When I ask doctors about those older classes of drugs, they act like I'm some sort of freak for wanting something like that, never mind the fact that it worked well for me before with no side effects, and that any of these SSRI's have set off all sorts of odd reactions. I don’t think Barber is in any way saying that people shouldn’t take these drugs if they need them. He is saying that they are prescribed for conditions that can be managed by far less drastic measures. An example of this practice of overprescription can be found in my community, where nearly every woman who is unhappy in her marriage is handed a prescription for Prozac.
Along with complaining about the overprescription of these drugs, he is also complaining about the lack of follow-up, since most are handed out by family practice people, who say to come back in six months.
I haven’t heard what he’s been saying on radio or television. I would like to know how the heck you can still be getting MAO inhibitors. When I ask doctors about those older classes of drugs, they act like I’m some sort of freak for wanting something like that, never mind the fact that it worked well for me before with no side effects, and that any of these SSRI’s have set off all sorts of odd reactions.

]]> By: Bob http://susiemadrak.com/2008/04/17/13/06/comfortably-numb-3/#comment-141113 Bob Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:17:50 +0000 http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24508#comment-141113 I’ve spent the last 20 years waiting for the push-back on this to begin in earnest and it appears it’s finally come. I have been on Nardil, an MAO inhibitor, for over 20 years. It’s for depression. At various times for various reasons I go off it. All I can tell you is there is simply no comparison to my life on anti-depressants versus my life off them. Off them I exist – I earned college degrees, worked, married, had a child, but I was not actively engaged in my own life in any meaningful way. I went through the motions and developed enough coping strategies to get by. But beyond that? Not much. Nardil gives me no high, I do not in any way, shape or form go through life “comfortably numb” (and from the day I first heard of Barber’s book I was outraged by the flippant title – I assure you without meds I am uncomfortably numb, with them I am engaged), I experience no rush or euphoria. All I do is go about living my life without constant thoughts of suicide and despair. And all along I’ve waited for the day when the great push-back would arrive and I, and the millions of others like me, would find ourselves being attacked for having the audacity to take psychiatric medications. My father was diabetic and took insulin every day for the last 30 years of his life and not once had to answer for that. He had an illness, there was a medication that made that illness manageable, he took it and got on with his life. Just as it should be. It sickens me that in 2008 we still have to defend taking pysch meds. Why? Why do I have to defend this? Why do I have to see this fucker on the TV and hear him on the radio with his glib dismissals and his book title taken from a 60’s psychedelic bands song about alienation, as if that has any connection whatever to anti-depressants? Yes, I know the pharmaceutical industry is hopelessly corrupt and they market and push drugs on people who don’t need them. But that’s a large, institutional problem. Where is the book “The Statin Island Fairy Godmother: How the Pharmaceutical Industry Has Pushed Statins Over Healthful Eating”? It astonishes me how many people still think psychiatry and psychiatric medications are some sort of voodoo. They aren’t. I am an intelligent adult capable of making informed medical decisions for myself. If Dr. Barber doesn’t like psychiatric medications I have a suggestion; he should refrain from taking them. Remember the outrage when Tom Cruise got into an argument with Matt Lauer? You know, happy Scientologists don’t need such medications? How are the two arguments different? They are both based on the belief that some form of therapy is all we need. Barber is a cancer who is so caught up in his own little world that he is unable to see the damage he does. Please, PLEASE do not give this man any more attention. I’ve spent the last 20 years waiting for the push-back on this to begin in earnest and it appears it’s finally come. I have been on Nardil, an MAO inhibitor, for over 20 years. It’s for depression. At various times for various reasons I go off it. All I can tell you is there is simply no comparison to my life on anti-depressants versus my life off them. Off them I exist – I earned college degrees, worked, married, had a child, but I was not actively engaged in my own life in any meaningful way. I went through the motions and developed enough coping strategies to get by. But beyond that? Not much.
Nardil gives me no high, I do not in any way, shape or form go through life “comfortably numb” (and from the day I first heard of Barber’s book I was outraged by the flippant title – I assure you without meds I am uncomfortably numb, with them I am engaged), I experience no rush or euphoria. All I do is go about living my life without constant thoughts of suicide and despair.
And all along I’ve waited for the day when the great push-back would arrive and I, and the millions of others like me, would find ourselves being attacked for having the audacity to take psychiatric medications. My father was diabetic and took insulin every day for the last 30 years of his life and not once had to answer for that. He had an illness, there was a medication that made that illness manageable, he took it and got on with his life. Just as it should be. It sickens me that in 2008 we still have to defend taking pysch meds. Why? Why do I have to defend this? Why do I have to see this fucker on the TV and hear him on the radio with his glib dismissals and his book title taken from a 60’s psychedelic bands song about alienation, as if that has any connection whatever to anti-depressants?
Yes, I know the pharmaceutical industry is hopelessly corrupt and they market and push drugs on people who don’t need them. But that’s a large, institutional problem. Where is the book “The Statin Island Fairy Godmother: How the Pharmaceutical Industry Has Pushed Statins Over Healthful Eating”? It astonishes me how many people still think psychiatry and psychiatric medications are some sort of voodoo. They aren’t.
I am an intelligent adult capable of making informed medical decisions for myself. If Dr. Barber doesn’t like psychiatric medications I have a suggestion; he should refrain from taking them.
Remember the outrage when Tom Cruise got into an argument with Matt Lauer? You know, happy Scientologists don’t need such medications? How are the two arguments different? They are both based on the belief that some form of therapy is all we need.
Barber is a cancer who is so caught up in his own little world that he is unable to see the damage he does. Please, PLEASE do not give this man any more attention.

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