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	<title>Comments on: Pragmatic</title>
	<atom:link href="http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/</link>
	<description>Keeping a jaundiced eye on the corporate media.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: memyself</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143233</link>
		<dc:creator>memyself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 00:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143233</guid>
		<description>Yup - Financial Times ... quoted by several blogs, but that's the original.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup - Financial Times &#8230; quoted by several blogs, but that&#8217;s the original.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143217</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 16:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143217</guid>
		<description>jawbone - I saw that at Financial Times:

http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto051120081526533438&#38;page=2</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jawbone - I saw that at Financial Times:</p>
<p><a href="http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto051120081526533438&amp;page=2" rel="nofollow">http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto051120081526533438&amp;page=2</a></p>
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		<title>By: jawbone</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143214</link>
		<dc:creator>jawbone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 16:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143214</guid>
		<description>memyself, #13, do you have a link for the quote? Thanx.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>memyself, #13, do you have a link for the quote? Thanx.</p>
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		<title>By: votermom</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143210</link>
		<dc:creator>votermom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 14:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143210</guid>
		<description>Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Susie</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143209</link>
		<dc:creator>Susie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 14:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143209</guid>
		<description>Oh, that was our little friend Whippingpost pretending to be you. He's gone now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, that was our little friend Whippingpost pretending to be you. He&#8217;s gone now.</p>
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		<title>By: votermom</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143208</link>
		<dc:creator>votermom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 14:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143208</guid>
		<description>I mean at 16 -- what's with the numbers changing? Susie is not Rita Skeeter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean at 16 &#8212; what&#8217;s with the numbers changing? Susie is not Rita Skeeter.</p>
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		<title>By: votermom</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143207</link>
		<dc:creator>votermom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 14:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143207</guid>
		<description>Susie, that's not me at 17. I should be flattered, I got my own troll impersonator. FOAD, pig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Susie, that&#8217;s not me at 17. I should be flattered, I got my own troll impersonator. FOAD, pig.</p>
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		<title>By: brendancalling</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143206</link>
		<dc:creator>brendancalling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143206</guid>
		<description>so don't vote for him votermom, and then you can feel really good when President McCain stacks the SCOTUS.
Or vote for Nader, there's a real winner for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so don&#8217;t vote for him votermom, and then you can feel really good when President McCain stacks the SCOTUS.<br />
Or vote for Nader, there&#8217;s a real winner for you.</p>
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		<title>By: votermom</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143203</link>
		<dc:creator>votermom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 12:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143203</guid>
		<description>Face it, Susie. Obama doesn't want your vote, or mine either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Face it, Susie. Obama doesn&#8217;t want your vote, or mine either.</p>
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		<title>By: Macjazz</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143200</link>
		<dc:creator>Macjazz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 12:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143200</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Obama wants to "write off the South" ... which is why he's already talking about running a "50 state strategy" (a la Howard Dean - which seemed to turn out ok last time around, congressionally ...).  Of course he's derided in some quarters for running a "48 state strategy" in the primaries ^_^ ... but any way you slice it, his approach does not constitute "writing off the South".   That "Neo-Libertarian" stuff really is tinfoil hat territory (besides, I thought he was a radical Christian/Muslim - a brand new demographic!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Obama wants to &#8220;write off the South&#8221; &#8230; which is why he&#8217;s already talking about running a &#8220;50 state strategy&#8221; (a la Howard Dean - which seemed to turn out ok last time around, congressionally &#8230;).  Of course he&#8217;s derided in some quarters for running a &#8220;48 state strategy&#8221; in the primaries ^_^ &#8230; but any way you slice it, his approach does not constitute &#8220;writing off the South&#8221;.   That &#8220;Neo-Libertarian&#8221; stuff really is tinfoil hat territory (besides, I thought he was a radical Christian/Muslim - a brand new demographic!)</p>
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		<title>By: memyself</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143199</link>
		<dc:creator>memyself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 10:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143199</guid>
		<description>Nancy - Talkleft (formally one of my most used bookmarks, now deleted from my favorites) has turned into an Obama hate fest just as bad as the Clinton hate fests on pro Obama sites.  I have stopped reading any of them. The rant you copied and pasted is typical of the foolish crap that has driven me from these sites.  Trying to link Obama's campaign and supporters with "neo-Libertarians" is tin foil hat territory, big time. It is reminiscent of right wingers screeching about nefarious plots by feminists. 

Would you like to know what is causing Obama problems in many areas? Here's the results of interviewing Democrats at a recent Clinton rally in WV.  I hope that even people this ignorant can be better informed before November, but unfortunately that depends in large part on whether the MSM plays along with the disinformation campaigns being waged or if instead they decide to actually educate the public on the facts.

"Most people questioned said they mistrusted Mr Obama because of doubts about his patriotism and “values”, stemming from his cosmopolitan background, his exotic name and the controversy surrounding “anti-American” sermons by Jeremiah Wright, his former pastor. Several people said they believed he was a Muslim – an unfounded rumour that has circulated on the internet for months – despite the contradiction with his 20-year membership of Mr Wright’s church in Chicago. Others mentioned his refusal to wear a Stars and Stripes badge and controversial remarks by his wife, Mich­elle, who des­cribed America as “mean” and implied that she had never been proud of the US until her husband ran for president."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nancy - Talkleft (formally one of my most used bookmarks, now deleted from my favorites) has turned into an Obama hate fest just as bad as the Clinton hate fests on pro Obama sites.  I have stopped reading any of them. The rant you copied and pasted is typical of the foolish crap that has driven me from these sites.  Trying to link Obama&#8217;s campaign and supporters with &#8220;neo-Libertarians&#8221; is tin foil hat territory, big time. It is reminiscent of right wingers screeching about nefarious plots by feminists. </p>
<p>Would you like to know what is causing Obama problems in many areas? Here&#8217;s the results of interviewing Democrats at a recent Clinton rally in WV.  I hope that even people this ignorant can be better informed before November, but unfortunately that depends in large part on whether the MSM plays along with the disinformation campaigns being waged or if instead they decide to actually educate the public on the facts.</p>
<p>&#8220;Most people questioned said they mistrusted Mr Obama because of doubts about his patriotism and “values”, stemming from his cosmopolitan background, his exotic name and the controversy surrounding “anti-American” sermons by Jeremiah Wright, his former pastor. Several people said they believed he was a Muslim – an unfounded rumour that has circulated on the internet for months – despite the contradiction with his 20-year membership of Mr Wright’s church in Chicago. Others mentioned his refusal to wear a Stars and Stripes badge and controversial remarks by his wife, Mich­elle, who des­cribed America as “mean” and implied that she had never been proud of the US until her husband ran for president.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: HeywoodR</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143198</link>
		<dc:creator>HeywoodR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 09:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143198</guid>
		<description>I think the time has come to boycott the Clinton bloggers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the time has come to boycott the Clinton bloggers.</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143197</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 08:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143197</guid>
		<description>i've considered obama an independence party impostor trying to hijack the dem brand for a while now.  but it crystallized for me today when i read the following comment by chancellor over at talkleft:

&lt;blockquote&gt;[A]s I see it, this year, the will of the voters is going to mean less than the power struggle going on within the Beltway Dems--aided and abetted by some in the blogosphere. The Mountain States are seen by these "new coalition" Dems as representing the best opportunity to counter the Southern Strategy of the Repubs.

As best I can tell, there are many in the Dem party who would like to write off the South entirely as an electoral strategy. This would mean being able to throw out the influence of the Carters, the Gores and the Clintons. Of course, they can't do this without replacement states to make up the votes. What they're hoping is that they can cobble together enough Libertarians in the Mountain States and the border states, such as Virginia and Missouri, to re-draw the electoral map. Obama is the candidate that they chose to draw these voters into the Dem fold.

The problem is that the big electoral votes are still in states where the voter demographics favor Clinton. IMO, the neo-Libertarians will do anything to stop Clinton in order to execute the first part of their strategy--including taking a loss in the GE, as long as they think they can pick up the congressional races. They're trying to prove a point here, IMO, whether or not it means winning back the White House. There's also a problem in that Libertarians are not Democrats, so we are seeing a fight not just for votes but for values. . . .

My guess is that they believe it's now or never, and that due to the state of the economy, the Iraq war/occupation and Bush's approval ratings, this is the time for the coup.

BTW, I do believe it is an attempt at an internal coup. IMO, the comments by Brazile were a slip-up in her anger--we weren't supposed to know that we were being told to go to the back of the bus and stay there, at least not until November. However, now that the plan is out there, you have people like Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller extolling the virtues of the new, neo-Libertarian party, formerly known as the Democrats. Maybe they think we'll change our minds once they tell us how wonderful everything is going to be under the new order. It's Animal Farm redux, best I can tell.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve considered obama an independence party impostor trying to hijack the dem brand for a while now.  but it crystallized for me today when i read the following comment by chancellor over at talkleft:</p>
<blockquote><p>[A]s I see it, this year, the will of the voters is going to mean less than the power struggle going on within the Beltway Dems&#8211;aided and abetted by some in the blogosphere. The Mountain States are seen by these &#8220;new coalition&#8221; Dems as representing the best opportunity to counter the Southern Strategy of the Repubs.</p>
<p>As best I can tell, there are many in the Dem party who would like to write off the South entirely as an electoral strategy. This would mean being able to throw out the influence of the Carters, the Gores and the Clintons. Of course, they can&#8217;t do this without replacement states to make up the votes. What they&#8217;re hoping is that they can cobble together enough Libertarians in the Mountain States and the border states, such as Virginia and Missouri, to re-draw the electoral map. Obama is the candidate that they chose to draw these voters into the Dem fold.</p>
<p>The problem is that the big electoral votes are still in states where the voter demographics favor Clinton. IMO, the neo-Libertarians will do anything to stop Clinton in order to execute the first part of their strategy&#8211;including taking a loss in the GE, as long as they think they can pick up the congressional races. They&#8217;re trying to prove a point here, IMO, whether or not it means winning back the White House. There&#8217;s also a problem in that Libertarians are not Democrats, so we are seeing a fight not just for votes but for values. . . .</p>
<p>My guess is that they believe it&#8217;s now or never, and that due to the state of the economy, the Iraq war/occupation and Bush&#8217;s approval ratings, this is the time for the coup.</p>
<p>BTW, I do believe it is an attempt at an internal coup. IMO, the comments by Brazile were a slip-up in her anger&#8211;we weren&#8217;t supposed to know that we were being told to go to the back of the bus and stay there, at least not until November. However, now that the plan is out there, you have people like Chris Bowers and Matt Stoller extolling the virtues of the new, neo-Libertarian party, formerly known as the Democrats. Maybe they think we&#8217;ll change our minds once they tell us how wonderful everything is going to be under the new order. It&#8217;s Animal Farm redux, best I can tell.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143184</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143184</guid>
		<description>No Lambert, it's the same old politics. You know, the kind where your preferred flawed-centrist losses the nomination to a different flawed-centrist thus allowing you the opportunity to scream betrayal from the rooftops. 
I've got two words for you "President McCain."
You’ve got two choices. keep slamming the only alternative we have thus greatly increasing the chances of our having to utter those two obscene words for the next four years or growing the f**k up and accepting the tragedy that is your preferred flawed centrist running an incompetent campaign and loosing and then getting on with the business of ensuring the f**cking madman doesn’t get his finger on the button.
If not for the fact that people like you are so damned intent on succeeding and giving us ALL four more years of this madness I wouldn't give a shit. Unfortunately your temper tantrums threaten to take us all down so I'm forced to pay attention to the likes of you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Lambert, it&#8217;s the same old politics. You know, the kind where your preferred flawed-centrist losses the nomination to a different flawed-centrist thus allowing you the opportunity to scream betrayal from the rooftops.<br />
I&#8217;ve got two words for you &#8220;President McCain.&#8221;<br />
You’ve got two choices. keep slamming the only alternative we have thus greatly increasing the chances of our having to utter those two obscene words for the next four years or growing the f**k up and accepting the tragedy that is your preferred flawed centrist running an incompetent campaign and loosing and then getting on with the business of ensuring the f**cking madman doesn’t get his finger on the button.<br />
If not for the fact that people like you are so damned intent on succeeding and giving us ALL four more years of this madness I wouldn&#8217;t give a shit. Unfortunately your temper tantrums threaten to take us all down so I&#8217;m forced to pay attention to the likes of you.</p>
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		<title>By: lambert strether</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143183</link>
		<dc:creator>lambert strether</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143183</guid>
		<description>I love the "wins the thread" concept.

Sort of like a bunch of home invaders playing "win the remote" round the TV, ya know?  Not hard to play, especially when you don't have to clean up after yourself. Mom will do that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the &#8220;wins the thread&#8221; concept.</p>
<p>Sort of like a bunch of home invaders playing &#8220;win the remote&#8221; round the TV, ya know?  Not hard to play, especially when you don&#8217;t have to clean up after yourself. Mom will do that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: lambert strether</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143182</link>
		<dc:creator>lambert strether</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143182</guid>
		<description>Er, is this the new kind of politics I've heard so much about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Er, is this the new kind of politics I&#8217;ve heard so much about?</p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143181</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143181</guid>
		<description>Three months ago I figured that I would support whoever won the nomination, in spite of the Clinton record of failing to deliver on campaign promises in the 90s.

However, I have been developing a real dislike of Hillary, partly because of the reminders of what happened in the 90s, and partly because of how she's acting now.

This post, of course, does not come from the Clinton campaign.  It really seems to come from the One Percent Campaign, the perennial party of whatever name that points out during each election that none of the candidates other than their own are perfect.  Which turns out to be your basic explanation of why the One Percent Campaign never gets more than one percent of the vote.

The post challenges us to think about what constitutes principle.  I don't know much about Hillary's principles.  I've read about pardons and Hillary's brothers, but it seems that in some respects Hillary has 8 years of experience as a sort of shadow-president, and in other cases &lt;i&gt;she was totally uninvolved&lt;/i&gt;.

Well, if that is principles, I can't imagine too many candidates don't have 'em.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three months ago I figured that I would support whoever won the nomination, in spite of the Clinton record of failing to deliver on campaign promises in the 90s.</p>
<p>However, I have been developing a real dislike of Hillary, partly because of the reminders of what happened in the 90s, and partly because of how she&#8217;s acting now.</p>
<p>This post, of course, does not come from the Clinton campaign.  It really seems to come from the One Percent Campaign, the perennial party of whatever name that points out during each election that none of the candidates other than their own are perfect.  Which turns out to be your basic explanation of why the One Percent Campaign never gets more than one percent of the vote.</p>
<p>The post challenges us to think about what constitutes principle.  I don&#8217;t know much about Hillary&#8217;s principles.  I&#8217;ve read about pardons and Hillary&#8217;s brothers, but it seems that in some respects Hillary has 8 years of experience as a sort of shadow-president, and in other cases <i>she was totally uninvolved</i>.</p>
<p>Well, if that is principles, I can&#8217;t imagine too many candidates don&#8217;t have &#8216;em.</p>
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		<title>By: memyself</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143177</link>
		<dc:creator>memyself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 19:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143177</guid>
		<description>I'll be glad when Hillary finally concedes and allows the final stages of grief for her campaign to be processed completely.

Until then if all you can do is grasp at straws and make believe the man who is beating her is somehow a lesser being ... well have at it. Even though I don't truly understand the need for this,  I still hope it helps you bring closure somehow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll be glad when Hillary finally concedes and allows the final stages of grief for her campaign to be processed completely.</p>
<p>Until then if all you can do is grasp at straws and make believe the man who is beating her is somehow a lesser being &#8230; well have at it. Even though I don&#8217;t truly understand the need for this,  I still hope it helps you bring closure somehow.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143176</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 18:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143176</guid>
		<description>If you want principles vote Green. If you want A. someone who can actually win and thus govern and B. someone who carefully considers all options before making the CORRECT choice then I suggest you vote Obama.
On the other hand, if the words President McCain suit you may I suggest you continue to denigrate the works of the only viable alternative? That'll show us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want principles vote Green. If you want A. someone who can actually win and thus govern and B. someone who carefully considers all options before making the CORRECT choice then I suggest you vote Obama.<br />
On the other hand, if the words President McCain suit you may I suggest you continue to denigrate the works of the only viable alternative? That&#8217;ll show us.</p>
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		<title>By: TheExpatriate</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143173</link>
		<dc:creator>TheExpatriate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 17:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143173</guid>
		<description>Macjazz wins the thread</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Macjazz wins the thread</p>
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		<title>By: Macjazz</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143171</link>
		<dc:creator>Macjazz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 16:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143171</guid>
		<description>Yeah, really.  So Obama's a politician. Shocker. Who knew?  

* While [Obama] said the Iraq war would lead to “an occupation of undetermined length with undetermined costs and undetermined consequences,” he was also careful to emphasize that there were times when military intervention was necessary. *

So he got it exactly right in considering the consequences of the invasion, and actually spoke out against it when it was by no means politically safe to do so, particularly for one with national aspirations.  As opposed to, y'know, actually VOTING FOR THE F***ING WAR.   Just a sliiiight differencce there, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, really.  So Obama&#8217;s a politician. Shocker. Who knew?  </p>
<p>* While [Obama] said the Iraq war would lead to “an occupation of undetermined length with undetermined costs and undetermined consequences,” he was also careful to emphasize that there were times when military intervention was necessary. *</p>
<p>So he got it exactly right in considering the consequences of the invasion, and actually spoke out against it when it was by no means politically safe to do so, particularly for one with national aspirations.  As opposed to, y&#8217;know, actually VOTING FOR THE F***ING WAR.   Just a sliiiight differencce there, no?</p>
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		<title>By: snuzy mandrake</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143166</link>
		<dc:creator>snuzy mandrake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 15:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143166</guid>
		<description>why does that make it not principled? on the contrary, it looks like obama was opposed to the war and wanted to speak out about it, but he was worried about whether it would harm his future political prospects. after discussing it with his consultant, he decided to speak out anyway, but to emphasize that he wasn't opposed to all wars.

that doesn't mean he wasn't really opposed to the iraq invasion, or that he wasn't taking a real risk in speaking out against it in 2002. it does mean that obama was worried about stuff beyond his feelings of the war, but that doesn't make his feelings less genuine. nor does it take away from his courage in speaking out against the war at a time that people were regularly vilified for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why does that make it not principled? on the contrary, it looks like obama was opposed to the war and wanted to speak out about it, but he was worried about whether it would harm his future political prospects. after discussing it with his consultant, he decided to speak out anyway, but to emphasize that he wasn&#8217;t opposed to all wars.</p>
<p>that doesn&#8217;t mean he wasn&#8217;t really opposed to the iraq invasion, or that he wasn&#8217;t taking a real risk in speaking out against it in 2002. it does mean that obama was worried about stuff beyond his feelings of the war, but that doesn&#8217;t make his feelings less genuine. nor does it take away from his courage in speaking out against the war at a time that people were regularly vilified for it.</p>
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		<title>By: steveeboy</title>
		<link>http://susiemadrak.com/2008/05/11/09/09/pragmatic/#comment-143158</link>
		<dc:creator>steveeboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 14:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susiemadrak.com/?p=24800#comment-143158</guid>
		<description>yep,

it's terrible to have a leader that considers all the ramifications of a decision--including the political ramifications-- and then makes the right decision as opposed to a leader that considers all the ramifications and then makes the safe, WRONG decision.

again, is this really the best you can do?

obama considers all sides, including political ramifications, and then makes the right choices, as opposed to hrc, who seems to only decide based on political winds and defaults to the wrong position?

do you really want to compare the war votes/positions of hrc and obama?

it's a loser for you.

I guess you're still in denial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yep,</p>
<p>it&#8217;s terrible to have a leader that considers all the ramifications of a decision&#8211;including the political ramifications&#8211; and then makes the right decision as opposed to a leader that considers all the ramifications and then makes the safe, WRONG decision.</p>
<p>again, is this really the best you can do?</p>
<p>obama considers all sides, including political ramifications, and then makes the right choices, as opposed to hrc, who seems to only decide based on political winds and defaults to the wrong position?</p>
<p>do you really want to compare the war votes/positions of hrc and obama?</p>
<p>it&#8217;s a loser for you.</p>
<p>I guess you&#8217;re still in denial.</p>
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