Yep

~ susie

What Katrina vanden Heuvel said.

I really admire Helen Thomas, since she’s one of the few people who ever stood up to the Bush White House. We’re all seeing a lot of outrage over what she said, but I wonder how much of it is genuine, and how much is manufactured, kneejerk outrage that’s a result of how we’ve accepted such a narrow range of discourse on the topic of Israel – and how those in political circles perceive it as a third rail.

Published by susie

32 thoughts on “Yep”

  1. Thomas would probably have survived the fallout if she had stopped at “…get the hell out of Palestine….” Probably..

    But she then went on to add such a slur that was so hateful and hurtful that she had no choice but to not show her face again.

    Some of the talking heads DO have a point. Would ya’all have been so non-committal if Rush Limbaugh had told all the blacks in America to go back to Africa??

    Of course you wouldn’t.. Ya’all would have gone utterly ballistic.. And rightly so…

    So, what’s the difference??

    Having said all that, my personal opinion is that Thomas SHOULD have been given some consideration. One shouldn’t wipe out decades and decades of service by one public indiscretion. I probably disagree with Thomas on much, but I DO think her service should count for something.

    It’s truly a shame that this will probably be how she is remembered.

    Michale32086

  2. As I recall, Rush did suggest that all blacks in America should go back to Africa. He’s said lots of hateful things, yet he continues to prosper.

  3. As I recall, Rush did suggest that all blacks in America should go back to Africa.

    As I recall, many racist comments attributed to Rush never actually were said. It was always, someone heard someone say that someone said that Rush had said yada yada yada…..

    However, if you do have any links that show EXACTLY what Rush has said in this regard, I would be very happy to read them.

    Thanx

    Michale32086

  4. Regardless, the issue of what Rush might have said or didn’t say really isn’t my point.

    My only point in using that example was to show that ALL sorts of statements of that type are horrid and do not belong in public discussions and debates.

    Wouldn’t you agree???

    Michale32086

  5. [T]he issue of what Rush might have said or didn’t say really isn’t my point.
    Maybe you shouldn’t have raised it, then?

    [I]f you do have any links that show EXACTLY what Rush has said in this regard, I would be very happy to read them.
    If you don’t mind doing a little research on your own behalf you’ll find many. I don’t have an exhaustive list or a lot of time but here are a couple to get you started; they took less than a minute to locate. (‘Course, maybe that’s because Google’s my friend.)
    * http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3928
    * http://mediamatters.org/limbaughwire/2009/09/15#0023

  7. Maybe you shouldn’t have raised it, then?

    It was meant to illustrate my point. It wasn’t meant to supplant my point.

    If you don’t mind doing a little research on your own behalf you’ll find many. I don’t have an exhaustive list or a lot of time but here are a couple to get you started; they took less than a minute to locate. (‘Course, maybe that’s because Google’s my friend.)

    It’s not up to me to make other people’s arguments for them.

    Further, being that the topic of this discussion is Helen Thomas and not Rush Limbaugh, to pursue this topic would be… trolling… No?? 😀

    But, I tell you what I will do. I’ll retain your links (thanx, by the bi) and, if there ever is a discussion about Limbaugh’s alleged racist statements, we can discuss them then.. 😀

    How’z that? 😀

    Sorry for the unclosed tag!

    ‘s aww right.. It happens. 😀

    Peace…

    Michale32086

  8. What Thomas said is the truth if one cares to look at it in the context of the Native American Experience. Their country has been occupied for more than a few centuries. And regarding the issue of African-Americans residing in America: remember that they were forced to reside here, against their will. Therefore, they can leave when, and if, they ever get ready since slavery has been outlawed for a while now. Long live Helen Thomas’ truth and legacy!

  9. I think had Ms. Thomas stopped after stating that Israel should “get the hell out of Palestine.” ….she would have survived. The statement about where Israeli’s should go, was well past the mark and the comment was made without any real goading. Ms Thomas had too know that the Tee peers and the Villagers were just lying in wait for her to make some gaffe.

  11. For goodness sake, Mahatma Ghandi said that the European Jews should have committed suicide rather than submit to the German death camps. Ghandi, of course, chose his enemies wisely, and this sort of thing, as with his desire for the Japanese to drive the British out of India, tends to get glossed over in the hagiography.

  12. thank you pragmatic realist for the link, it does lend a bit more background to the exchange but i still think Ms. Thomas crossed a line as a journalist with the off the cuff with her second remark. I am in agreement with her 1st remark “get the hell out of Palestine.

  13. dandy,

    What Thomas said is the truth if one cares to look at it in the context of the Native American Experience. Their country has been occupied for more than a few centuries.

    I agree with you that the situation of Palestine does share some similarities with the American Indian situation here.

    But I am not sure what you are saying with your comment. Are you saying that the American government should return the country to it’s original inhabitants?

    krahbedad,
    Very well said. That was my point as well. A public figure can get away with saying that a people should leave a country. But to suggest they return to a place that held unmitigated horror and millions of dead… Well, that just crosses a line that should not be crossed.

    Michale32086

  14. pragmatic realist,

    There seems to be a good deal more to this story. Read Gary Leupp at Counterpunch: The Ambushing of Helen Thomas.

    Just my personal opinion, mind you, but that really doesn’t seem to be a “good deal more” to the story.

    It just seems to be the old rehashing of senseless hatred and bigotry.

    I am not going to get into the religious aspects of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I am as agnostic as the come and I believe that ANY organized religion is simply a way to control the masses. Organized religion is bunk, pure and simple.

    No offense to any religious people here..

    My point is simple. For better or for worse, the Palestinians are a conquered people. They lost their lands to a superior force. It’s sad and it’s unfair and it’s all that, but it IS the way it is. The Palestinians have no more claim to the land than the American Indians have claim to the whole of the United States.

    For those who believe that Israel should return all land to Palestine and the Palestinians, then they must also believe that the American government should return all of the United States to the American Indians. Anything less is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

    But, I can assure you of one thing. NEITHER of those things ain’t ever gonna happen. Ever.

    One must also remember that any land Israel has acquired since it’s birth has been as the result of BEING attacked by countries with vastly superior numbers. Israel has NEVER attacked any country in an effort to secure land. Not once, not ever.

    I am not sure why so many on the Left are so defensive of the Palestinians. I am sure it can’t be religious reasons. It must be the status of “underdog” that the Palestinians seem to foster and nurture. But who really are the “underdogs” here??

    There are approx 358 MILLION people in the Arab world..

    Do you know the population of Israel? 7 million..

    Seems to me that, when you are out numbered over 51 to 1, then your “underdog” status is all but assured, no?? 😀

    I have said it before and I will say it again. The Palestinians would be able to live in peace side by side with Israel, if they would just be content to live in peace, side by side with Israel.

    But until such time as Palestinians learn to love their lives and families more than they hate Israel, this will be a vicious cycle of violence and blood that will never end. Until such time as the Palestinians give up on terrorism and supporting terrorists, Israel will always have the legal, ethical and moral high ground. Always.

    Michale32086

  15. I LOVE Helen Thomas!!!!! Info clearing house has some great anit-israHELL articles, and the IDF propagandists are totally overwhelmed!!! Good site.

  16. I would agree that as unfair as it is, or not, Israel isn’t going anywhere. Criticism of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, however, seems to be completely fair game. And behind the literal meaning of Helen Thomas’s words is criticism of the way Israel treats the Palestinians. The attack on Helen achieved its objectives: her firing and a warning to anyone else who dares criticize Israel, and a distraction from the issue of how Israel treats the Palestinians collectively under Israeli apartheid. Helen should have apologized and kept her job.

  17. Foraker,

    I would agree that as unfair as it is, or not, Israel isn’t going anywhere.

    I am glad to see you post this. Because that is the biggest stumbling block to a rational and mature discussion regarding the Israeli/Palestinian situation. All too often the debates degenerate into a “Israel Stole The Lands/God Gave Those Lands To Israel” argument and NOTHING is ever settled…

    Criticism of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, however, seems to be completely fair game.

    Fair enough. I would agree with this statement. However, such criticism needs to take into account the “WHY”…

    Why is Israel treating the Palestinians in this manner?

    Is it because Israelis are simply big meeny poop heads and like to be cruel? I don’t think it is.

    Or is it because Israel has very real security concerns, not the least of which is being outnumbered 51 to 1, as I mention above?? Every time Israel acquiesced to the wishes of the Palestinians, they were STILL attacked.

    Palestinians wanted Israel out of Lebanon.

    Israel withdrew from Lebanon and terrorism and missile attacks increased.

    Palestinians wanted Israel out of Gaza.

    Israel withdrew from Gaza and terrorism and missile attacks increased.

    Let’s face it. The Palestinians won’t be happy unless Israel commits national suicide and walks into the sea..

    And you and I both know that Israel is never going to do that.

    Let me ask you this. All BS and liberal/conservative rhetoric aside.

    What would you have Israel do with regards to Gaza? Keeping in mind the very real security concerns that Israel has, the very real threat that Hamas represents, what would you have Israel do?

    I am sincerely curious as to your answer.

    Michale32086

  18. The issue isn’t whether or not Thomas said some stupid and regrettable things as the subject of an interview; the issue is whether we live in a country where one has the freedom to express unpopular or even wrong opinions without fear of retaliation. In that regard, Thomas is the canary in the coal mine… and the canary died…

  19. the issue is whether we live in a country where one has the freedom to express unpopular or even wrong opinions without fear of retaliation.

    I would point out my Rush Limbaugh example, but I see how people can get hooked on that. 😀

    Sounds like to me, you are saying that we should be able to say whatever we want with absolutely no consequences whatsoever.

    I am sure that is not what you mean…

    Michale32086

  20. Michale said, “My point is simple. For better or for worse, the Palestinians are a conquered people. They lost their lands to a superior force. It’s sad and it’s unfair and it’s all that, but it IS the way it is. The Palestinians have no more claim to the land than the American Indians have claim to the whole of the United States.”

    Yes, Michale, you made a rather simplistic point – a staggering admittance of your ignorance concerning the historical facts of the region. (Or we can start with how Israel initially funded Hamas so the Palestinians would appear to be religious zealots and not a people attempting to forge a sovereign nation.)

  21. Cos,

    Yes, Michale, you made a rather simplistic point – a staggering admittance of your ignorance concerning the historical facts of the region.

    “There is no dishonor in not knowing everything,”
    -SubCommander T’al

    I have already conceded that I don’t pay attention to ancient history of the region. What it all boils down to is ‘he said/she said’ writ large in the sands of time..

    Which “historical facts” are YOU referring to??

    Or we can start with how Israel initially funded Hamas so the Palestinians would appear to be religious zealots and not a people attempting to forge a sovereign nation.

    OK, let’s start with that.

    Please cite your “facts”…. 😀 I would be very interested in reading them.

    Michale32086…..

  22. Michale,
    So it’s better to be a hammer than a nail, eh?
    Karma’s a biatch, babe. Israel is on the wrong side of the lightning bolt this time. See you in the funny papers.

  23. I was wondering how long it would take till the sockpuppets show up… 😀

    If being falsely accused of being a Troll isn’t sufficient validation of my positions, the appearance of sockpuppets surely is! 😀

    Israel is on the wrong side of the lightning bolt this time.

    Your facts to support this opinion??

    Seems to me that Israel has the backing of every civilized country on the planet..

    Michale32086

  24. I still LOVE HELEN THOMAS and some stupid trolls will never change my mind. The fact that the propagandists are all over the place is proof enough for me that she hit the nail on their stupid heads!!!! LOVE HELEN THOMAS will send her flowers myself, all you propagansits keep frothing at the mouth, tearing out hair etc. LOVE HELEN THOMAS!!!

  25. I still LOVE HELEN THOMAS and some stupid trolls will never change my mind.

    There’s a word for that.. 😀 It’s called being close-minded.. Something that is, normally, anathema to a liberal.

    The fact that the propagandists are all over the place is proof enough for me that she hit the nail on their stupid heads!!!!

    You really aren’t interested in “proof” or facts.. What you are seeking is confirmation, validation and maybe even a little absolution..

    Things that are, sadly, going to be in very short supply for people who think as you do, considering where this world is heading…

    Michale32086

  26. John Cole at Balloon Juice has longer video and full transcript…in his “You’ve Been Played” post, which complements the Counterpunch article.

  27. Why is it that, when I ask people for facts to back up their claims, all I get is {{{chiiirrrrpppp}} {{chiiiirrrrrpppppp}}…

    Cricket City….

    Michale32086

  29. Rose,

    😀 I like you.

    You like what you like and love what you love and no amount of facts or logic will change that. 😀

    I admire such spunk… I really do..

    Michale32086

  30. Why is it that, when I ask people for facts to back up their claims, all I get is {{{chiiirrrrpppp}} {{chiiiirrrrrpppppp}}…
    —–
    You brought up Rush Limbaugh’s purported racism (in the first comment on this thread), drew a response, questioned the accuracy of the response and said you’d be very happy to read any links backing it up, drew another reply with links, said that this wasn’t really your argument anyway, declined to research it yourself (“It’s not up to me to make other people’s arguments for them”), made a couple of comments apparently about having been called a troll, and then asked why no one is engaging with you on your terms.

    I hadn’t seen you being called a troll (sounds like there’s some back-story but no matter) — but if this thread’s typical of your style, it would make sense someone’d see you that way.

  31. “What would you have Israel do with regards to Gaza? Keeping in mind the very real security concerns that Israel has, the very real threat that Hamas represents, what would you have Israel do?”

    This is totally off topic of Helen Thomas’s remarks, but here goes.

    Israel has conquered the Palestinians (your own words), and therefore has a responsibility to police the population. Make them Israeli citizens, give them the freedom to leave the country, make sure the criminals receive a fair trial, the children have plenty to eat, a roof over their heads, safety and physical security, an education for their minds, and medical care.

    What has Israel done instead? Put all the Palestinians into concentration camps. Just because there are thugs within the Gaza region who want to kill Israelis does not mean that Israel has the right to just seal the border. That is collective punishment, something Jews the world over should abhor.

    I would also note that it isn’t solving the problem.

  32. Ghost,

    You brought up Rush Limbaugh’s purported racism (in the first comment on this thread),

    Yes, as an example of the same kind of bigoted comments that Helen Thomas made.. It was an example meant to illustrate the opposing reactions from the OP, thereby illustrating the point that it’s not the comments but rather WHO makes the comment that is what is important.. IE if a Liberal makes a hateful and hurtful bigoted remark, it’s perfectly acceptable. But when a Conservative makes a hateful and hurtful remark, it’s “off with his head!”…

    declined to research it yourself

    I declined to research someone else’s claims because that is not my place. If someone wants to make a comment it’s up to them to bring along supporting facts… Wouldn’t you agree??

    made a couple of comments apparently about having been called a troll, and then asked why no one is engaging with you on your terms.

    If by “my terms” you mean I expect facts before I would change my position, well I guess that’s true.. Surely you don’t expect me to change my position simply because someone makes a claim..

    Would you??

    I hadn’t seen you being called a troll

    It’s hard to miss.. There were two specific commentaries that addressed it.. 😀

    but if this thread’s typical of your style, it would make sense someone’d see you that way.

    Only someone who really doesn’t know the meaning of what an Internet Troll really is…

    We all have our own styles of posting… A common (and failing) debating tactic is to focus on a person’s style, thereby somehow casting doubt on the veracity of his or her facts.

    I appreciate your input though.. 😀

    Foraker,

    This is totally off topic of Helen Thomas’s remarks, but here goes.

    Good point.. Mea culpa…

    Israel has conquered the Palestinians (your own words), and therefore has a responsibility to police the population. Make them Israeli citizens, give them the freedom to leave the country, make sure the criminals receive a fair trial, the children have plenty to eat, a roof over their heads, safety and physical security, an education for their minds, and medical care.

    While I don’t totally disagree with your points, there is another option. One that Israel (and the United States) have chosen. Put them in their own “country” or territory and let them govern themselves.

    Just because there are thugs within the Gaza region who want to kill Israelis does not mean that Israel has the right to just seal the border

    I am sorry, but that is exactly what it means… Why do you think Israel should allow importing of massive amounts of weapons and explosives that will, in turn, be used to kill Israeli citizens.

    Would ANY country allow that??

    That is collective punishment, something Jews the world over should abhor.

    Actually, it is not. At least not by any reasonable or logical definition that is recognized by international law.

    Let me ask you.. Why is Hamas smuggling in tens of thousands of tons of weapons and explosives every month?? If there is such a humanitarian disaster as you claim, shouldn’t Hamas (which is the defacto government of Gaza) import more foodstuffs and medicine?

    Seems to me that HAMAS is more of the problem than Israel.

    I would also note that it isn’t solving the problem.

    No?? A lot less Israelis are dying these days due to missile attacks and suicide bombers. Such a decline is directly attributed to the blockade of Gaza.

    What’s more important?? Israelis not being killed by terrorism?? Or Gazans missing a meal because the government is to hate-filled to take care of the citizens of Gaza?

    Regardless of the answer, it is clear that the biggest obstacle to peace in the region is not Israel, it’s Hamas.

    Israel ain’t going anywhere.. And NONE of this is going to change until Hamas is eliminated.

    It’s really that simple.

    I appreciate your post. It’s definitely given me food for thought.. Thanx

    Michale32086

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